i want to consider this point, free from the trinity / arian debate.
there have been an abundance of threads that have deteriorated into these doctrine, and it clouds this issue because tempers get raised.. so, please, can we keep it simple.
should jesus receive our worship, right here, right now?.
-I usually like to start out with an argument for the flexability (to Trinitarian support ) of the Greek word 'proskuneo' . Then I proceed to discuss the following three in additon to a few others:
*Matt2:10-11
*Revelations5:13
*Rev20:4&6..cf..Rev22:3 ['latreuo']
i still say that, christiaity is f--- up in these last days.. christianity teaches that the messiah is god, when the bible clearly points out that jesus is a prophet sent by god... jesus prayed to god<----that's the biggest proof... so i think if anybody believe that jesus is god, is not only an'-ti-christ(not accepting) but also a liar, foolish, and you knoweth nothing, and you are not close to god or christ, you are closer to that devil which we call satan....
note the fact that in order for Christ to be "subjected" to the Father, he would have to have been equal at one time."he would have to have been equal at one time." WHY?
Your usage of the word "Fact" is only relivant in it's original text. After that it is no longer fact but your opinion.
You have highlighted what YOU BELIEVE to be KEY text.
And I have to dissagree with you in bold highlights that the time and place and refference to is besides the point. It IS the point. The whole point. OTHERWISE it is only consistant with putting God back in the box man created for him.
plum
Hey Plum and God bless you ;),
The question to be answered is not my own opinion, but the simple principle derived from the passage. WHAT must Christ have been statuswise in order to be MADE subject. Here lies the rub. In order to be MADE subject, you would have to be equal to the person to which you are MADE subject.
God bless you in the highest,
Jeremiah
i still say that, christiaity is f--- up in these last days.. christianity teaches that the messiah is god, when the bible clearly points out that jesus is a prophet sent by god... jesus prayed to god<----that's the biggest proof... so i think if anybody believe that jesus is god, is not only an'-ti-christ(not accepting) but also a liar, foolish, and you knoweth nothing, and you are not close to god or christ, you are closer to that devil which we call satan....
ewww! My html turned out cruddy..
i still say that, christiaity is f--- up in these last days.. christianity teaches that the messiah is god, when the bible clearly points out that jesus is a prophet sent by god... jesus prayed to god<----that's the biggest proof... so i think if anybody believe that jesus is god, is not only an'-ti-christ(not accepting) but also a liar, foolish, and you knoweth nothing, and you are not close to god or christ, you are closer to that devil which we call satan....
Christ was/is a priest
There are no "level of degrees" in worship given to the Father and Son here. They are honored as equals. See Rev20: 6 "...but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." What does a priest do? Serve -'latreuo', i.e. service only allowable to God.
OR by simply reading the passage rather then PARTICULAR words in it, it can mean simply that authority was given to Christ over the earth (complete authority) for a time. Which would only be fair since he did suffer quite a bit of pain and humiliation while on earth being sacrificed and maybe would like a period of time all to himself to even a few scores per sa. Perfectly understandable. Normally Vengeance is mine sayth the Lord Which means he can do with it what ever he wants. He can give it to his son for a while if he wants to and we have no authority to dispute it.
God the Father gives Christ complete authority (over the earth/our universe, small as it may be) for certain purposes and when he is finished Christ hands it back.
About that time would be a good time for some more Books to be either revealed or written to continue the saga. Because that would cover Revelations.
Those words are highlighted in order to show what is KEY in the passage. Note again the context: ....priests OF Christ. This is what you call a "partitive genitive" which denotes relation to the subject. The people are priests for Christ, they serve Christ. That is what is to be emphasized.
There are no "level of degrees" in worship given to the Father and Son here.
Different meanings can translate simply by highlighting different words/phrases in most scriptures. Depending on what ones OBJECTIVE is.
You didn't address the context. It is the fact that, within the context, Christ is distinguished WITH THE FATHER from EVERY CREATURE. Also note the PRESENCE of the articles in the GREEK. This denotes THE honor etc...as I demonstrated from Jn5:18 etc...in my previous post.
when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.(ON EARTH).. vs28.... When He has done this, THEN the Son WILL BE made SUBJECTto Him who put everything under him
To Him who put everything under him
SO what exactly IS everything?
Everything pertinent to US?
Everything pertinent to God?
We dont know about everything that is with in our reach much less everything that goes beyond that.
By only highlighting, THEN the Son WILL BE made SUBJECT and focusing on that is to suggest there was no prior arrangement. As though it was that way throughout all infinity right up until THAT VERSE.
The time of occurence is beside the point. It is the structure of the context. Once again note the "made subject"...note the fact that in order for Christ to be "subjected" to the Father, he would have to have been equal at one time. See Heb5:8. All of creation is obedient to Father God. Why then did Jesus, whom according to you is a creature, have to "learn" obediencs during His stint in the incarnated state if he already "knew" as Michael (or whoever) prior?
1 John 5:9-11
9 Do we not accept human testimony? The testimony of God is much greater: it is the testimony God has given on his own Son's behalf. 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God possesses that testimony within his heart. Whoever does not believe God has made God a liar by refusing to believe in the testimony he has given on his own Son's behalf. 11 The testimony is this: God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. [NAB]
The Son is known only by revelation from God, there has as yet been no witness to the Son by the Son himself
The scriptures equally state that no one can know the Father nor come to Him except by Christ.
From what I've gathered YHWH isn't used anywhere in the New Testament. If they aren't using the "Word", why wouldn't they say His Name is "the Word of God"? Those that understand what the "Word of God" is would understand what is being referred.
You are correct. YHWH is not used in the NT. However, if you look at the REFERENCE to the verse cited in Hebrews, you will note that the Greek word 'kyrios' is a representation (here, not in every NT occurance) of YHWH in this verse. So when Paul says "in the beginning O Lord" he is quotign directly from the Psalm that stated "in the beginning O YHWH".....
Do you believe the "Word of God" is the Scriptures? Why didn't they say His Name is "the Scriptures"? And on that subject, do you really believe that 'all things came into existence" through the Bible? All things came into existence "whether the things in heaven or the things on earth" for and through the Bible?
I believe that it is another name for Christ, such as "Wonderful" etc... The scriptures testify of christ, not the other way around. It is Christ you must come to "you search the scriptures in vain thinking that by THEM you possess eternal life. Yet you refuse to come to ME."....
God bless you in the highest, ><>
Jeremiah Lee
Edited by - Jeremiah Lee on 9 August 2002 9:46:21
if there is a god who crested us , then why did he create germs , viruses ans other such things that harm and kill us?why also are there no instructions about these things in the bible, and don't give me that mosaic law crap, where does it mention for example boiling water or spreading germs through human contact, the most important things you can do agianst catching nasty dieseases?edited by - sleepy on 9 august 2002 9:4:21.
Read Genesis 3:17-19 "....cursed is the ground because of you;.......It will produce thorns and thistles for you...."
*We should not think to exclude diseases as well within this "cursed earth". Remeber that death itself entered the world through sin.
God bless,
Lee
i still say that, christiaity is f--- up in these last days.. christianity teaches that the messiah is god, when the bible clearly points out that jesus is a prophet sent by god... jesus prayed to god<----that's the biggest proof... so i think if anybody believe that jesus is god, is not only an'-ti-christ(not accepting) but also a liar, foolish, and you knoweth nothing, and you are not close to god or christ, you are closer to that devil which we call satan....
My personal feelings about this is that both the trinitarians and the jdubs have it wrong.I think that for several reasons, but the main one is because I think they don't have an accurate understanding of what the 'Word' is. I believe that the 'Word' spoken of in John 1:1 is the Word that God created to say "I AM".
This means that Jesus/the Word is God because that Word reflects what God Is, but yet He's created, and in subjection.
Most people think that the Word of God is the bible, so they can't see how He can be created and be God, or be God and still be created.
Note the context of John1:1-13. I've been debating a christadelphian on these passages so I'm out of kink with the JW mindset right now.
Revelations 19:13 "....and His name is "The Word of God".
Note in Heb1:10-12 that the Father CALLS Jesus "YHWH" ..cf..OT reference. Why would the YHWH address another as YHWH? Is he "name-bearing" to himself?
God bless,
Jeremiah L.G.
Edited by - Jeremiah Lee on 9 August 2002 7:37:45
i still say that, christiaity is f--- up in these last days.. christianity teaches that the messiah is god, when the bible clearly points out that jesus is a prophet sent by god... jesus prayed to god<----that's the biggest proof... so i think if anybody believe that jesus is god, is not only an'-ti-christ(not accepting) but also a liar, foolish, and you knoweth nothing, and you are not close to god or christ, you are closer to that devil which we call satan....
>>>Yes because God gave him the authority to and Jesus himself SAID SO!<<<
1Corinthians15:24 "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power........vs28....When He has done this, THEN the Son WILL BE made SUBJECT to Him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."
*Note how Christ "gives" the Kingdom to the Father. Note additionally how the Son will only be MADE "subject" to the Father when this happens. What is Christ's relative position to the Father before subjection? Equal. Otherwise there would be no "subjection".
On this see Jn5:18 where John the narrator interjects to state Christ's equality with the Father. Now jump to Rev13:5 where the articles in the Greek appear before the "honor, glory, and praise' in order to denote THE honor, that honor which we must give to Christ JUST AS we do the Father..cf..Jn5:23. There are no "level of degrees" in worship given to the Father and Son here. They are honored as equals. See Rev20:6 "...but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." What does a priest do? Serve -'latreuo', i.e. service only allowable to God.
Read: Rev7:15 "..they are before the throne of God and serve [latreuo] Him day and night in his temple;........For the lamb at the center of the throne..."
*We see that the throne is shared between the Father and Son. We see that the people who are made priests of God and Christ are performing the acts of priests...i.e. service. Jesus is served; see also Rev22:3.
God bless,
Jeremiah L.G.
i still say that, christiaity is f--- up in these last days.. christianity teaches that the messiah is god, when the bible clearly points out that jesus is a prophet sent by god... jesus prayed to god<----that's the biggest proof... so i think if anybody believe that jesus is god, is not only an'-ti-christ(not accepting) but also a liar, foolish, and you knoweth nothing, and you are not close to god or christ, you are closer to that devil which we call satan....
the governing body is such an elite group.
whatever they say, it is law.
they are revered and held in the highest esteem.
............
this isnt really so much about erasmus and the "received text" as about how our nature is to cling to what we have accepted as true despite evidence to the contrary, especially when it comes to what we believe is inspired.
towards the end of the fourth century, when jerome revised the old latin version, he wrote in the preface to the gospels : "is there a man, learned or unlearned, who will not, when he takes the volume in his hands, and perceives that what he reads does not suit his settled tastes, break out immediately into violent language and call me a forger and a profane person for having had the audacity to add anything to the ancient books, or to make any changes or corrections therein?
" and so it was and has continued to be.
I agree...
